Partners in Progress | Up for Discussion with Penny Barsha and Rachel Li

In this episode of CB Up for Discussion, we are joined by Penny Barsha, Asia Head of Corporate Responsibility at Linklaters, and Rachel Li, Head of Case Management and Research at HELP for Domestic Workers. Together, they share their inspiring collaboration on the HELPline program, an initiative that provides emergency support, shelter, and comprehensive assistance to migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong.

Throughout the episode, we explore several key areas:

• Penny and Rachel discuss the inception of HELPline and how the partnership between Linklaters and HELP has evolved over the years to address the critical needs of migrant domestic workers.
• We learn about the challenges faced by migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong, including employment disputes, debt cycles, immigration issues, and access to healthcare.
• The tangible impacts of HELPline are highlighted through inspiring stories of transformation, such as Lillian’s journey from exploitation to becoming a community leader.
• The importance of corporate partnerships with grassroots organizations is emphasized, with advice on how businesses can create meaningful CSR initiatives that align with community needs.
• Penny and Rachel share their thoughts on empathy and curiosity as essential tools for creating lasting change in society.

Join us for an enlightening conversation about how corporates and NGOs can work together to empower marginalized communities and make a ripple of change across society. Tune in now!

[Jeiz Robles] (0:16 - 2:23)
Hello, I'm Jeiz Robles from Community Business and I'll be hosting today's podcast. Today we are delighted to be Up for Discussion with Penny from Linklaters and Rachel from HELP. Our first guest today is Penny Barsha, the Asia Head of Corporate Responsibility for Linklaters.
 
She manages the firm's social impact, pro bono, diversity, equity, and inclusion, environment, and health and well-being initiatives across Asia, ensuring that the firm is responsible and sustainable in the region. Prior to taking on this role, she worked as a corporate lawyer in Hong Kong and Australia for 12 years, focusing on cross-border M&A as well as I.D. roles. We are also joined by Rachel Li, the Head of Case Management and Research at HELP for domestic workers.
 
She is a Hong Kong qualified lawyer who holds a double degree in literature and law from the University of Hong Kong. As a public interest lawyer, she has experience in employment law, immigration, asylum law, criminal law, public policy, and legislative reform. She is deeply passionate about facilitating access to justice for women, LGBTQ+, individuals, and other underprivileged communities.
 
I'm very excited to jump into this conversation where we specifically discuss an incredible initiative that Penny and Rachel have spearheaded, HELPline. Growing up in a family of migrant workers, this initiative is pretty close to my heart. The program offers emergency support, shelter, and comprehensive advice and assistance to migrant domestic workers in times of crisis.
 
And today, we will be discussing this program, its inception, and how corporates and NGOs can partner and create lasting change. Thank you for joining us, Rachel and Penny. And please do introduce yourselves more.
 
[Penny Barsha] (2:24 - 2:41)
Great. Thank you, Jeiz. I'm really excited to be here today, and particularly with Rachel.
 
I'm really excited to be talking about the HELPline project, which, again, is something close to my heart as well. I've been working with HELP on this for a long time and really looking forward to discussing more about it today.
 
[Rachel Li] (2:42 - 2:51)
Thank you so much for having us. As Penny mentioned, without the support of Linklaters, HELPline wouldn't exist. So, very excited to tell you more about the program.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (2:52 - 3:03)
Welcome, welcome. So, yeah, let's get started. Can you provide an overview of the HELPline program and its mission in supporting migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong?
 
[Rachel Li] (3:04 - 5:18)
Sure. So, as you know, Hong Kong is home to 340,000 migrant domestic workers. They are the backbone of Hong Kong society, providing care to many Hong Kong families.
 
But as you can imagine, often when these workers come to Hong Kong, at some point in their employment journey, they will encounter challenges and problems. It could be an employment issue. It could be an issue relating to debt, because a lot of these workers start their job with debt on their backs.
 
They start their jobs with three months' wages in debt, so they could get into these vicious cycles of loans. They could become victims of crime, for example, scams or assault. They could become in breach of immigration regulations.
 
They could have overstayed without knowing the immigration rules. So, at some point, they'll get into difficulties like this. So, the HELPline programs come in to fill this gap.
 
What we do is we provide, as you mentioned, advice and assistance to migrant domestic workers who are in crisis. The areas we work on is really diverse. It goes from labor issues to immigration issues, loans and debt-related issues, agency issues, and other issues such as family matters, children-related matters.
 
We also work really closely with the employers of domestic workers, because often the dispute is between the worker and the employer. What we want to do is to prevent the dispute from escalating by bringing in the employer early on, so that maybe we can encourage a settlement, so that the worker is not remaining in Hong Kong to deal with a prolonged legal process. On top of that, often when workers come to us, they are homeless.
 
They don't have a visa. They are very desperate because they don't know what to do. So, we provide that social welfare support to them as well.
 
So, we can refer them to shelters. We may need to facilitate access to medical care. So, this is giving them information about the public health system, so that, let's say, a worker who's terminated because she has a terminal illness can continue to receive that treatment while she fights her case.
 
We've been partnering on this program. We've been creators for many years.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (5:19 - 6:01)
That's very great to hear that a venue like this now exists. I say that because growing up in a household of what we call overseas Filipino workers, I've often heard about the challenges my parents had working in another country and not having this kind of support at that time. It's great that we have this now, specifically here in Hong Kong, supporting thousands and thousands of lives.
 
So, thank you so much for what you do. So, how did the partnership between HELP and LinkLaters actually come about, and what are the key roles that each of your organizations play in this collaboration?
 
[Penny Barsha] (6:02 - 7:40)
So, I can jump in to let you know about the origins of this partnership. So, it first started when one of the employment lawyers in our Hong Kong office was volunteering on a personal basis at the HELP clinic, which runs on Sundays. It's a walking clinic for domestic workers who are looking for legal assistance.
 
And she could see immediately just the scale of the issues that the domestic workers were facing and how many of them were walking through the doors. And she could see that there was definitely a need for more legal assistance required. So, back over a decade ago now, she invited HELP into our office to raise awareness around the migrant domestic worker population in Hong Kong and the challenges that they face.
 
I remember attending that talk. It was very enlightening at the time because a lot of the time these issues are just not well known. And after that, there were so many people in the office interested in trying to help HELP.
 
We set up a training session and so trained up the lawyers on the issues that are commonly seen in speaking to other friends in other law firms. Everyone else wanted to get involved as well. So, we started running the trainings regularly and training up a huge group of lawyers across multiple law firms and in-house counsel teams and running a roster.
 
So, getting people to sign up and then scheduling people on a roster every Sunday. And that was over a decade ago now and that's still happening today.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (7:41 - 8:17)
That's great to hear. It can be incredibly difficult to get legal support if you're a migrant domestic worker. So, it's great that legulators actually offer this kind of support and do it pro bono as well.
 
So, thank you so much for that. Can you talk more about tangible impacts that the HELP line program had on the lives of migrant domestic workers since its inception? Maybe can you share a specific case study that highlights the effectiveness of the program?
 
Sure.
 
[Rachel Li] (8:17 - 11:58)
So, the program is really transformative because often when workers come to us, they have experienced exploitation. They might be very traumatized from the experience. Let's say they've experienced abuse in their employment or they come from a place of hopelessness.
 
Let's say they're dealing with loan issues and they think that there's no way out. There's no solution to this problem. And when they come to us, when they come to the Sunday clinic, often what they tell us is, this is the first time someone has actually listened to me.
 
Thank you so much for listening. This is the first time someone has respected me, seen me as a person, and heard my story. And it's hard to give a number to capture that kind of impact.
 
But I guess what we try to do at HELP line is to make sure that the work we do is transforming lives. It's helping these women and men get out of what they may see as a situation that there's no way out, to give them the tools to make the decisions and navigate that challenge. I can give you some numbers.
 
So, every year we support 1,400 micro domestic workers and over 80 employers on various issues. The bulk of our claims are labor claims, so labor-related disputes. And of these disputes, over 90% are settled out of court.
 
So, what this means is when there's a dispute between a worker and an employer, we try to mediate between the two parties so that, as I mentioned, the worker is not dragged into prolonged litigation. Because when they remain in Hong Kong to pursue claims, they cannot work. The financial reality is extremely punishing for them and their families back home, because often they are the sole breadwinners for their families.
 
So, encouraging settlement early on is often beneficial for the client. But obviously, we'll also support the client if they want to pursue a labor claim at the tribunal, etc. I can tell you the story of Lillian.
 
So, Lillian is an Indian worker coming from a rural area. It was her first time coming to Hong Kong to work. She couldn't speak English and she had no idea of what the Hong Kong employment landscape is.
 
Let's say she doesn't know what the minimum wages is. She doesn't know what her rights are. So, when she came, unfortunately, she fell into a terrible situation where she was underpaid, she was sexually harassed by her employer, and she was physically abused.
 
She escaped that situation and came to us. And through our casework support, we managed to get a settlement for her for her labor claim. And we also supported her through her sexual harassment complaint with the police.
 
And this took over a year. This is one year of intensive support that we provided to Lillian. Now, Lillian is in a good place.
 
She found a new employer and she's become a community leader. So, she is now reaching out to other Indian workers who are in a similar situation like herself and bringing them to the help office or providing them with advice and the resource and help them navigate their own challenges. And it's so amazing to see her.
 
The other day, she came with another worker to our office and she was explaining to the worker, you know, I told you, these are your rights. You need to fight for them. And this is what you're entitled to.
 
And, you know, help will help you with your labor process. You don't have to be scared. She was such a different person from when she first came and she was, you know, crying and couldn't really express what she had gone through.
 
And, you know, very scared from today, being very confident and, you know, reaching out, helping her fellow workers. It's just so inspiring to see.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (11:59 - 12:50)
Yeah. Yeah. That's such an impact to not only one life, but it's like a huge impact to lives of different people now.
 
Thank you so much for sharing that particular story. And yeah, the number of people that you're able to reach, that's phenomenal. Thank you.
 
So community business really was founded in the idea of being the bridge to communities and businesses. And now a couple of decades after, we continue to do that as much as we can. And maybe this is for you.
 
What advice do you have for companies looking to create meaningful CSR work and partnering with grassroots organizations?
 
[Penny Barsha] (12:51 - 14:34)
I think one of the key things that corporates and organizations looking to make an impact in the community can do is to really listen. So be curious about what the issues are in the community and listen to organizations who are trying to address those issues and trying to support people who are in challenging situations. And once you listen and hear the stories and hear the issues, then as a corporate, you can work out what skills and resources you have that can then assist.
 
And so sometimes it might be that you and an organization working in the community just might not be the right match. You might not have the skills and resources that can really make an impact with that organization. And that's fine.
 
There's probably someone better placed to do that than your organization. And so you should just be clear about that. Don't waste anyone's time and find the organizations where you really do have that match in terms of values and long-term vision and skills and resources that you can provide.
 
Because having those ongoing discussions about what the organization is doing and what they're trying to achieve, and then being able to create a long-term relationship because of that and constantly be saying, well, actually, now I see you're trying to address this. We can do this to help you. Would this be a benefit?
 
That is that long-term relationship and dialogue and conversations is such a great way to really try and make sure that you are doing what you can to benefit organizations that are working in grassroots communities.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (14:34 - 15:16)
That's a really good point. Really understanding the communities and hearing from them, but also knowing to use the right language, I suppose, when it comes to bridging the objectives of both grassroots communities as well as the business sector. Because sometimes I find it that we're saying the same thing, but we're saying it differently.
 
And so it makes it harder to collaborate. But being able to bridge that gap, I suppose, is really important. Because in this example, in the Helpline Program, it's really leveraging on strengths and being able to provide the support that the community exactly needs.
 
Yeah, exactly.
 
[Penny Barsha] (15:17 - 15:42)
And sometimes you want to rush in and say, we can do this, we can do this to help you. But actually, that might not be what the organization needs. And that might just end up being more of a burden on the organization than they need.
 
But if you have that open dialogue, then you can really work out, well, this is exactly what we're best placed to do for you. And this is how we might be able to help you.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (15:42 - 16:20)
Is this what you need? Yeah. That's a good way to highlight that financial support is not the end of it all.
 
There are so many ways to actually provide support, granted that you also support the program financially. But really, the work that goes into, I think, is what's most important. All right.
 
So yeah, we're at time almost. So I have to ask my final question. And this is something that we ask all our guests.
 
What do you think is the biggest way that we can make a ripple of change throughout the society?
 
[Rachel Li] (16:23 - 17:18)
I guess it's to start from yourself, to come from a place of empathy, to see that we're not different, but very similar. So talking about the domestic worker community, they could be single parents. They could be working parents.
 
They could be working women. In so many ways, their experiences are very similar to our experiences as, let's say, working women. I'm sure everyone would have had to deal with HR at some point in their career.
 
And it's difficult. And put yourself in a domestic worker's shoe. The employer is their HR.
 
And having to go through that process is not easy. And when you come from a place of empathy, when you try to put yourself in another person's shoe, you will come to see things, I think, in a much more comprehensive way. And then you'll be able to see where and how you can help and support this community.
 
[Penny Barsha] (17:18 - 18:14)
Great. Yeah, I would 100% agree with that. Empathy is so important.
 
The other thing that I think is really key is curiosity, I think. So just being open to hearing other people's perspectives and other people's stories, to understanding the issues that are going on, just being really curious about the people that you're talking to, the organisations that you're working with, the issues that you're addressing. Having that curiosity then just allows you to understand the situation better, understand people better, have more empathy with them.
 
You'll be able to encourage change, facilitate differences. I think that is something that I'm always trying to do more of and encourage other people to do more of as well, just to be really curious about what's going on in the world.
 
[Jeiz Robles] (18:14 - 18:45)
Yeah. Empathy and curiosity, it can take us places and can make us do a lot of wonderful things. So thank you so much for your time today, Rachel and Penny.
 
It's been great hearing about the programme and looking forward to the lives that it will touch more in the future. I'd like to thank all of our audience today as well for spending time with us. Looking forward also to our next Up for Discussion topic.
 
Thank you.
 
[Speaker 4] (18:47 - 18:56)
Thank you for listening to CB Up for Discussion. For more information about our work across Asia, head to the Community Business website.