My Advocacy Journey | Up for Discussion with Marni Panas

This episode of Up for Discussion sets us up nicely for Pride month in a couple of weeks. We are delighted to be joined by Marni Panas, Chair of the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion and fellow GIDA member. Marni is a seasoned DE&I advocate and a proud transwoman who's impressive career spans health care, HR as well as DE&I leadership roles. 

 

In this episode, Janet and Marni explore: 

• Marni's personal advocacy journey 
• Continuing to view Pride as a protest in light of recent global shifts 
• Tips for allies who want to step up and support their LGBTQ+ friends and colleagues 
• A reminder of those crucial 5 Ds of being an Upstander 

Janet and Marni end on a positive note, reaffirming how friendship can flourish across borders and timezones and reflecting on how to stay positive in 2025. Don't miss this powerful conversation!

[Janet Ledger]

Hi, my name is Janet Ledger, the CEO at Community Business, and I will be your podcast host for today's episode. Today, I'm so excited that we're up for discussion with Marni Pannis.

 

Marni, thank you so much for joining us. For listeners, Marni and Community Business have been working together through our Global Inclusion and Diversity Alliance, and we're absolutely delighted to have her join us on the podcast today. So, Marni, you've got a really impressive history with your leadership role at ACCO and the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion, and your extensive work in DE&I, which goes back to the time that you were with Alberta Healthcare, which was one of the largest healthcare providers in Canada.

 

So, in terms of that amazing history, where was the moment that this all started for you?

 

[Marni Panas]

Well, hello and thank you for including me in this great conversation. Gosh, I keep thinking, what was that impetus moment? There's so many.

 

Nobody goes to school, to college, and say, I'm going to fight for human rights and advance diversity, equity, and inclusion. That's going to be my profession. I don't think that happens.

 

It's one of those journeys that you go on, because you just follow the road that's often laid before you. A lot of people get into this work because of their own experiences of oppression, or being held back in many different ways. And so, when I think back of where I started as, even in my advocacy world, was about soon after my transition.

 

I'm very public, and I was very public in my journey. I think what's really important is for people to get to know me at a real level. So, I never really held back.

 

I didn't have the privilege, actually, of being able to hide very much. So, in that space, I was very public. And I remember a mom reaching out to me in the very early days and saying, you know, my daughter is having a hard time going to the washroom in a school.

 

She was in kindergarten, her transgender daughter. Can you help? And I had no idea how to help.

 

But at the time, I said, of course, saying no wasn't an option either. So, together, we started that journey and working with the school board. And when that wasn't working well, you know, using my voice and my privilege to hold rallies and engage with media.

 

And then I started to realise, you know, I have a voice. I have a privilege in my community that was really important. And to leverage that, and people began to trust me, and media began to trust me.

 

And I started to realise that there was a platform that I had. And that really started me on my journey to advocacy for others, but then turning that eventually down the road into a profession of, you know, striving for equity and inclusion for everybody. And, you know, as I'm having this conversation in my head, I think it even started earlier than that, when I started in health care, when I had my boys at, you know, when they're born very early, very tiny, very sick 18 years ago, as a parent of sick children, you're always advocating for them, I was advocating for my role to be in the decision making about the health care of my children.

 

So when I think back on that journey, it started my work in health care, to create a space where families could be involved in the health care decisions of their child at the bedside and in the operations of the hospital. To me, that's also diversity, equity, inclusion, removing barriers, so people truly be engaged and active participants in their health care, in their education, in their workplace and their communities. And, you know, it might have been called something other than diversity, equity and inclusion, but it's something I've been doing for most of my adult life in different ways.

 

[Janet Ledger]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you mentioned, I mean, you've been very open about your journey as a transgender woman. So does that, how much does that personal experience inform your activism and then also your approach to your work?

 

Because I guess you're in that, you know, you're in a role where you can advocate, but you're also, you know, an outspoken activist.

 

[Marni Panas]

Well, you know, there's, when I've learned very early on that I have to own every element of my story, every, I have to own the narrative, because if I leave blanks out, then other people are going to fill in those blanks and those stories are often not very positive. So for me, I have to own my whole story as a trans person, as somebody who's, you know, from Ukrainian descent, you know, that being trans doesn't stop me caring about being Ukrainian and being a parent of sick children. And there's so many identities that I share.

 

So I've owned all of those stories. And that's part of my reality. That's who I am.

 

I can't turn off being trans for a moment for somebody else's comfort. This is who I am every day, all day long. And so I've learned to be very vocal, very open and transparent about all of those elements of my journey, because then I get to own my story.

 

There's something about self-determination in that. And also people are able and given a space to really be their whole selves and share openly. It builds trust.

 

You know, when people take the time to get to know others who are different than them, you know, it's really hard to discriminate against people like that, right? When you win, you have a chance. So I've built, I'd say, my entire life, my entire career on sharing my stories.

 

Where it becomes a challenge is that some people might minimise my efforts as a professional by one given identity saying, oh, you only care about that because you're trans, you only care about that, which is not true. So sometimes that can be a barrier. And so I've been very actively engaged in ensuring that my work is inclusive of all identities, everybody that experiences barriers.

 

And I have to be very intentional about that and consistent with that.

 

[Janet Ledger]

Yeah. I wanted to turn now to, you know, some of the rise in anti-DNI and the anti-transgender rhetoric that's going on around the world, but primarily in the US. So how is this affecting you and your community personally?

 

[Marni Panas]

Yeah. And I think, you know, when we talk about the, first of all, the context around anti-DEI rhetoric that we're hearing, we need to think about it in the greater context of a lot of movement, more social conservative views and even more extremist views around social issues. And so we also talking it in the context of rolling back LGBTQ rights.

 

We're talking about in the context of limiting healthcare and access to healthcare for women, for reproductive health, in the context of anti-immigration policies. You know, all of those things are happening at the same time that is part of the DEI conversation. So it's not just limited to DEI, but it's part of a much bigger.

 

So I think that's really important to reflect on. What does that mean for me personally? It is quite scary, actually.

 

I carry the weight of what is happening because this is my profession, advancing inclusion for communities, for people I care about. At the same time, I wonder what my future looks like. And thinking, being in Canada right now and thinking, travelling to the United States is no longer an option for me.

 

It's not only scary, but doing so could be very much at risk of, if my ID doesn't match what they say I should be, then it could be a legal problem. It could be a threat to my physical safety and my health and well-being. These are very real issues that I think about.

 

And what is the influence on my existence here in Canada? When often we're influenced by that. So we're seeing a rollback of rights all over the world to support gender and trans people and LGBTQ plus people and many people.

 

That is terrifying. At the same time, I have to remember and look back at history that the arc of human rights is still towards progress. And success isn't linear.

 

And while we're in an acute phase of attack and rolling back of rights, the thing that keeps me going, and it has to, is the belief that this work is essential, that it will continue and the arc will always bend towards equity, human rights.

 

[Janet Ledger]

And just on the spillover, because I mean, you are so close to the, with Canada being so close to the US, what is the spillover into Canada? And is it manifesting in the same way? And are the arguments and tactics similar?

 

[Marni Panas]

Absolutely. Certainly it is the rhetoric of political parties and leaders that are more conservative. This is very true.

 

And in my own province of Alberta, legislation has been introduced already and passed that would limit the experience of trans people, trans youth in particular, to access the necessary healthcare that they need, limit their access to safe spaces in their schools, participation in sports. And so for us here in Alberta, it is very real. And so it is already having an influence here.

 

And I did a lot of work in my time to advance human rights at the legislations, both at the provincial and federal levels here in Canada. And I am holding on to the belief of the rule of law in this country and that justice will prevail through our legal systems. What I worry about is the harms that will occur between now and then.

 

So I have faith in our legal system, even though if our legislation seems to be moving backwards.

 

[Janet Ledger]

What do you anticipate the conversation around Pride will be in North America this year?

 

[Marni Panas]

It's amazing because I didn't know what today's conversation would have been yesterday because it is changing so, so fast. I think what we need to remember around Pride is Pride has always been a protest. It's always been based on protest.

 

Pride, you know, when we think about where it really started after the Stonewall riots in New York, the genesis of the Pride movement had been started by Black women, Black trans women in spaces. And, you know, trans people have always been at the front lines of this fight for equity. And I think, you know, maybe that is something to think about as we celebrate Pride.

 

And I think it's absolutely necessary to celebrate who we are and our identities and the positive, amazing people and unique gifts and experiences that we all bring to this world without forgetting, however, that not everybody's there and can celebrate. And some people are fighting for their very lives. I think what's more important than ever is the reminder that Pride is still very much a protest and we don't get there until we all get there.

 

[Janet Ledger]

So what, I mean, allyships obviously a really big part of this and, you know, as well. So what are some of the most effective ways to engage allies at the moment in the LGBTQ2S plus community and how can we encourage people to be more active supporters?

 

[Marni Panas]

Mm-hmm. Right now, you asking that question is what allies should be doing, right? Asking that question, what do I need to know about what's going on so I can be the best ally for you?

 

And listen without judgement and to really understand, you know, creating platforms like you have done here is a show of allyship that people who are listening and participating in this conversation is part of being an ally and to seek to understand what the realities are. And then, you know, to think about who are you supporting in the elections around the world, we're going into an election here, there's different parts of the world, you know, are you actively engaged in supporting elected officials in elections in the few democracies that we have left, true democracies, that align with these values? You know, if you can't run yourself support financially, volunteer, you know, do the work at that level.

 

To stand up when you hear people making comments about trans people, about LGBTQ2S plus people in the world that are often lies is to be able to stand up for them because it takes so much energy for me to do it for myself. I don't have it in me all the time. Our allies to stand with us and to challenge the lies and mistruths that are out there that have served to dehumanise people like us.

 

[Janet Ledger]

Now, I've heard you a couple of times, very eloquently explain the 60s of being an upstander. So I'm going to ask you again, could you expand on that for the audience, especially in the face of homophobia? So how do you become an upstander?

 

[Marni Panas]

Yeah, well, off the top of my head, I'll remember this. So, you know, a bystander sees an event, hears an event, and watches. It does nothing to intervene in the moment or after the moment.

 

What we challenge people is to be that upstander, that person who does intervene. Now, we recognise as allies, it's important that your safety always comes first. You always have to be, am I safe in this space?

 

Because, you know, an ally, being an ally comes with some cost. And I mean, there should be, otherwise it's not, you don't need to be an ally, but it takes on some of that burden, but always to protect your safety first, you know, whether it's your career, your physical safety, emotional safety, you know, and if you're in a position of safety, is to think of different ways. What happens in the moment, one of the D's is to distract.

 

If you don't know what to do in the moment, that's often what allies will say is like, I don't know where to, you know, what to say or do. But maybe it's something about distracting, you know, just saying, well, you know, talk about the weather. When you hear the thing event, just talk about the sporting event that's going, whatever's happening in the world to distract from the thing that's going on.

 

To, you know, direct people to resources, you know, after the fact. Maybe it is, you know, about language, having dialogue, engaging people dialogue and saying, you know, when you said this, this is what I heard. Is that what you meant?

 

And so engaging people in dialogue, maybe it's delegate. If you're not in a position to empower, but you're in a workplace or in a community, maybe you need to delegate to somebody in a higher authority that something is going on, whatever your reporting process is in your workplace or in community to that. So somebody in a position of power responds to that.

 

So there's a lot of number of different things that people can do. At the very least, what I think is important is if you don't know what to do in the moment, after the moment, there's still things you can do and saying, you know what, Janet, I heard that this thing went on. I'm so sorry.

 

I know it had an impact on you. I didn't know what to say in the moment, but I want to check in with you. How are you doing?

 

Is there anything else I need to be aware of? What could I have done differently in that moment? And sometimes people, you know, in fact, even most of the time, just being believed and validated that they have this experience might be enough in solidarity.

 

Right. And so another one is demonstrate solidarity. If something's going on, physically sitting with somebody who is being harmed, even without saying a word, that simple act of that proximity shows allyship without saying a word.

 

So I guess if I had one message is that doing nothing should never be an option. Recognising your safety even after the fact is still something you can do at the very least check in with the person.

 

[Janet Ledger]

Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you.

 

I'd like to end on the positive, because, you know, that's one thing we did need to be making sure we're checking in on our mental health and that we are seeing the positive or what we can do. So how do you stay hopeful and motivated in the face of the challenges that we have at the moment? And what keeps you just completely committed to the work?

 

[Marni Panas]

Well, I love this question because, you know, we all experience hardships. Things are hard. Hard isn't relative.

 

Hard isn't harder than one person. Life is hard and we all experience these different things. So what where I bring joy is, you know, finding community with people who have shared values and beliefs.

 

And, you know, you know, Janet, I, you know, I consider you a dear friend. Some have gotten to know over the last couple of years that that fills me joy. I find, you know, it's important for me that the one thing I truly have that I can offer youth and children, you know, to spend time with them brings me great joy because I see the hope and I think, you know, we're going to be OK.

 

It reminds me that that arc will always move in a way and engage with children and youth. But the best gift that I can give them is living my life loudly and proudly and joyfully because seeing a trans woman who is successful and happy and healthy and in love and loving and a parent and doing well is the best gift that I can give them so that they can see themselves in their future also being happy and loved and reminding them that they are worthy of being loved. And then at a very personal level, when things are really, really hard, I tend to turtle a little bit where we my partner and I and my son have really committed to creating our joy wherever we are, whenever we are, we commit to being there in that moment.

 

And whether it's in the safety of our home or through a travel or through music or something, we make sure that we create our own moments of joy and we brace it fully.

 

[Janet Ledger]

That's wonderful. You know, I was saying to my team how excited I was to be doing this podcast and I was the one that wanted to be the one talking to you because the way that I explained to them is that Marni is the sort of person where you want to be in her glow. So, you know, so I do consider you a wonderful friend as well and it's always uplifting to have conversations with you and it does help, you know, keep me motivated that we've just got to keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Marni Panas]

And it is a good fight and the fight is worth it. Yes, absolutely. With all the hate and the rhetoric, they're very, very loud, but the people that you don't often hear about, the people who are impacted the most, they are, their lives are changing.

 

We may not be able to change the world, but through our work, through this conversation, we'll have changed the life, the world for somebody. And that means something.

 

[Janet Ledger]

Yeah. So, Marni, thank you so much for being on the discussion today. And as I said, I'm looking forward to continuing the friendship.

 

[Marni Panas]

Likewise. And I just challenge everybody to find joy, find whatever makes you joy and live it and lean into it. You too.

 

Thank you.

 

[Janet Ledger]

Thank you for listening to CB Up for Discussion. For more information about our work across Asia, head to the Community Business website.