Black in Asia | Up for Discussion with Innocent Mutanga

To celebrate Black History Month, in this episode of Up for Discussion, we're tackling an important topic: What does it mean to be Black in Asia? Our guest, Innocent Mutanga, offers a crucial perspective on the experiences of Black individuals living and working in Asian countries. We'll be exploring issues of representation, cultural understanding, and the unique challenges and triumphs that come with navigating race in a region often overlooked in global conversations about diversity and inclusion. In this episode, we discuss: 

• Innocent's personal journey and experiences as a Black individual in Asia. 

• The importance of representation for Black individuals in leadership positions and the media. 

• How cultural differences impact the way racial issues are perceived and addressed in Asian countries. 

• Examples of discrimination or bias Innocent has faced and how he navigated those situations. 

• How organizations and communities in Asia can better support Black individuals and promote inclusivity. 

Join us for an enlightening conversation about the experiences of marginalised communities in Hong Kong! Tune in now! 

 

[Ron Sampaga] (0:17 - 1:50) 

Hi everyone, welcome to Up for Discussion here in Community Business. My name is Ron Sampaga and I'm the Senior Manager, Consulting and Training at Community Business. I'll be your podcast host for today's episode. 

  

Today we are Up for Discussion with Innocent Mutanga. It is a very special episode as we celebrate Black History Month. Innocent Mutanga is an associate at a leading financial institution and the founder of the Africa Centre Hong Kong, where he champions cultural exchange and community empowerment. 

  

A political activist from Zimbabwe, Innocent fled his home country and arrived in Hong Kong as a refugee seven years ago. Innocent's academic pursuits led him to study Anthropology at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, CUHK, where he graduated before transitioning in the finance sector as an analyst. Despite his professional success, he remains deeply committed to social impact, founding the Africa Centre in Tsim Sha Tsui. 

  

The centre serves as a vibrant hub for cultural activities, fostering connection and understanding among diverse communities. An IVLP alumnus, a TEDx speaker, Innocent has shared his inspiring story widely, emphasising the importance of re-branding Blackness and the human obligation to uplift others. His work has been recognised on platforms such as the Zubin Diversity List and he has been featured in various media outlets, including the book, Dear Hong Kong. 

  

Welcome Innocent Mutanga in our Up for Discussion here in Community Business. 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (1:51 - 1:55) 

Oh, welcome. Thank you. I'm excited, you know, looking forward to the conversation. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (1:56 - 2:10) 

Thank you so much. To start off with, I would love for you to share your personal journey and your experiences as a Black individual living in Asia, and what challenges and opportunities have you encountered? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (2:11 - 4:45) 

Yeah, thanks Ron. I mean, being in Hong Kong or in Asia overall, it's a very interesting experience. You know, I would explain my experience in the form of two words. 

  

One is, you know, curiosity and two, being cautious. And I feel like people, when they interact with me as a Black individual, there is a sense of, like, caution, in a sense, like, you know, oh, you know, you're Black, you know, so we, you know, we could be dangerous. You know, you could be, your motives might be bad when you start to interact with people, make friendships. 

  

So there's a bit of that suspicion or caution. But on the other hand, there's also curiosity. People want to know more, you know, they want to learn more. 

  

You know, they would, of course, see me as one exotic at the other, you know, and they want to kind of, like, you know, get to know a lot more. So, so caution, curiosity has been kind of, like, the way I've experienced or how people have encountered a Blackness, which is me and everybody else around us. You know, so with that, in terms of challenges as well as opportunities, you know, you can kind of frame it from that angle as well. 

  

So that brings, from the opportunities perspective, you know, that brings more opportunities to educate people, you know, to expand people's views when it comes to global citizenship, when it comes to, you know, to issues related to, you know, just, you know, new ways of looking at things, you know, whether it's in schools, whether it's in, so people want to know, people want to know, they want to experience, oh, it's different food, you know. But still, you know, I've seen challenges sometimes, you know, you feel like they outweigh the benefits sometimes, you know, where people, you know, the idea of caution, like, you know, people go on the MTR, people stand up, run away, slap their nose, how difficult to rent a house, you know, because, and they'll tell you, like, I don't rent to you because you're Black, you know. 

  

So, so you see those kind of, you know, those kind of issues overall. But, you know, but being, coming in as a person who probably come from a background where uncertainties were kind of common, it brings with itself opportunities around, like, navigating these dynamic Hong Kong. Hong Kong can be very dynamic, changes all the time. 

  

So people who don't come from a background like mine might struggle to survive in that environment, but for me, change is the only constant, you know. So I find it easier to navigate volatile environments overall, you know, because of me just being a Black person or being African. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (4:46 - 5:18) 

Understood. Ashley, I may have the same experience as well, you know, Filipino working in Hong Kong. So I understand some of, you know, some of the challenges in a way during that time. 

  

Because of that, I'm very curious as well, what are some of your common common misconceptions or stereotypes you believe people have about Black individuals in Asia and how we can work to change these narratives? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (5:20 - 7:55) 

One is definitely dangerous, poor, you know, you know, I don't always get the benefit of the doubt that I might actually be rich. Usually the initial assumption is like, oh, you know, he's a Black guy, therefore he does not have a dollar sign on his forehead, you know. So, there is that. 

  

And then also there is other assumptions around, oh, maybe you could be too rough, you know, I rent you my property, maybe that means you might destroy it, you know. So you would see, you know, I think the other one, you know, which always come up, you know, when I have conversations, especially people, they'll say, oh, you know, people sometimes think like, oh, if you're Black, then you must not be intelligent. You know, therefore, you know, people assume somehow that you must have gotten it in some other nefarious ways to be able to achieve certain things, you know, which is quite mislead or misled. 

  

So, it's like poor, you know, dangerous, not intelligent, you know, and maybe not careful enough, you know. So, you would see those, you know, dirty, you know, some people come in, they want to rub off the skin, they're like, oh, you know, is this going to come off, you know, like your skin? You know, what if you wash it? 

  

Is it going to be clean? You know, you would see those as well. So, I mean, the stereotypes definitely, you know, keep popping up in that way. 

  

In terms of addressing those, you know, I think for me and also the work we do at the Africa Centre Hong Kong, you know, it's in two ways, really. One is storytelling and two is, you know, providing African solutions, you know, to challenge those perceptions. So, storytelling, people love stories. 

  

Everybody loves stories. You know, that's why we watch movies, that's why we read books, that's why kids like even to watch little shots on videos on IG, etc. So, we try to engage in more storytelling experiences, whether it's human libraries or just kind of like, you know, an event where we just tell our experience, tell things that we do, tell about, you know, where we come from, etc. 

  

You know, it does, you know, challenge some of these perceptions. That's the good thing about being in Asia, usually, because a lot of these perceptions or stereotypes are rooted in ignorance. So, you know, sometimes a little exposure can actually challenge these stereotypes. 

  

You know, I can't say the same about the Western world, but here I feel like change is a lot easier to achieve than other parts of the world. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (7:56 - 8:13) 

I totally agree when you mentioned about storytelling, if true storytelling we're able to inspire people for them to connect as well, right? Oh, I experienced this kind of situation before or maybe in the future, right? So, totally agree with you about storytelling. 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (8:14 - 9:28) 

I mean, it really helps a lot. And then just going to add on to the African solutions, innovative African solutions point, you know, for example, when somebody sees a black person or an African, but not everybody sees me as a solution provider immediately. You know, so there's that kind of perception. 

  

So when it comes to worksplaces, etc., you know, people don't necessarily think like, oh, here's an African. Oh my goodness, we are good now. You know, this person is going to serve us. 

  

I mean, I can give one example. A Nigerian bank was opening its branch in Hong Kong, but it branded itself as a UK bank, you know, to provide banking solutions. I'm like, why are you not saying you're a Nigerian bank? 

  

You know, because the branding is not so sexy, but, you know, they don't see them as people who provide solutions. But actually, you know, we just provide solutions probably better than most people because, you know, some of those experiences as well. So by providing African solutions, whether it's well-being, aging, all these things, we're trying to rebrand how people think of blackness in a way that they realize, oh my God, there's a solution provider. 

  

So that means somebody sees me, they're not seeing somebody who's looking for food. You know, somebody who is, they're looking for somebody who actually is going to bring solutions as well. So those are kind of like the way we're trying to address that as well. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (9:29 - 10:02) 

Yeah. That's good. That's good to hear. 

  

So it's actually connected on my next question for you. It's like, you know, in our research and community business about race and culture, we found that the concept of race is not prominent in Asia. Instead, we must discuss homogeneity, ethnicity, or culture. 

  

In your experience, how do cultural differences impact the way racial issues are perceived and addressed in Asian countries compared to Western contexts? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (10:04 - 12:44) 

I think probably a major difference between how race, ethnicity, et cetera, is discussed, you know, or perceived across the different regions. I think here in Hong Kong and China overall, there is an intersection with class. So there are associations when it comes to, you know, the darker your skin is, the less money they think you have. 

  

I mean, some of that also is historical. Let's say you take, for example, in greater China, where, you know, peasants who are farmers, you know, they will spend a lot of time in the sun. Therefore, their skin sometimes could be a little darker than those who are lazy and staying in their houses, right, the upper class. 

  

You know, therefore, there's association that the upper class are light skinned and the lower class, you know, or the peasants are the darker skinned. So there's an intersection in Asia between class and ethnicity or race. And that's why when, you know, when I'm in Central Hong Kong, my experience is a little different than when I'm in Yuen Long, right. 

  

So when I'm in Central, people treat me very well, but they assume that I must have been, I must have some money, you know, but when I'm in Yuen Long, you know, people don't necessarily think, oh, this must be the African who is trying to just, you know, survive here, you know, so you would see that. But on the other hand, if you are Black and then you show your American passport, the experience or how they perceive you becomes different. If I show my Ghanaian passport or Nigerian passport, then it's different as well. 

  

So the American one, you know, elevates you a little bit up into the structure of who is more superior. What is an African passport, you know, lowers you further. So when it comes to the Western world, you know, there is, you know, unlike with class, I think there's deep-rooted ideologies, you know, which in many ways were, you know, perpetrated by religion as well as, you know, views around like the inherent assumption that, you know, a particular individual is born or is created less than the other person, you know, so that becomes difficult. 

  

For somebody, someone thinks someone is inferior because of their skin color, you know, whereas here it's like, oh, as long as you got the money, you know, therefore we're equal or you are more superior than me. So you would see those, you know, and that shapes one's experiences as well. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (12:46 - 13:23) 

Yes. You know, when you mentioned about the cultural context, like, you know, the religion can impact that, the expectation as well in Hong Kong, especially Hong Kong is a very diverse city, right? People are coming from different parts of the world, right? 

  

So the expectation and the boundaries really play a part and of course the intersectionality as well, right? So you have your own journey of social mobility from being homeless when you first arrived in Hong Kong to now working at the top investment bank. What have been the key factors or policies that have supported you on this journey? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (13:26 - 16:12) 

I think when it comes to things that have supported me in this journey, I mean, you know, in short, I think, you know, it's going back again to the qualities, you know, like resilience, you know, which I think is a thing that a lot of people struggle with, but I think it's, you know, so there's that, you know, these qualities, and then there's also people, you know, like, I mean, the people around, you know, Hong Kong, you know, does produce a very phenomenal group of people, you know, like people who come here, you know, you know, they come in different shapes in terms of how you deal with them. You know, I remember, you know, earlier on, you know, one lady, you know, reaching out like, oh, you know, you know, I heard about you from this professor, you know, who also was a friend of mine at the university, and would really want to see if we can work something together to support you in your path. You know, that was, to me, in some way, you know, gave me a lot more faith in individuals as well, and we worked very well together, and the support that came in, you know, not just in terms of resources, but also in terms of network, which is also resources, and just the support emotionally, you know, because when you're coming in, you're homeless, you know, people don't necessarily think you, you know, most people think you are in there because of you deserve it, you know, you must have not done something right, or you are lazy, that's why you're in that position, but far from the truth, you know, circumstances can actually, you know, shape people's experiences, in a sense, so there are people who are choosing to believe, you know, in me, you know, on every stage, whether it's my friend Chantelle, the one I'm talking about, whether it's Professor Gordon Matthews, who was the professor later, and, you know, a lot of other, you know, individuals, for me to get into, like, education, you know, and then there were a lot more people who were coming in, say, I'm going to mentor you when I get into the industry in finance, you know, whether it's social entrepreneurship as well, kind of, you know, the work we do at the Africa Centre, so there was, I think the key theme in this is just that there were people who were choosing against, you know, all the assumptions that are there, that let's believe in this kind of, let's believe in this individual, so I think that was a key to getting to where I am, in addition to the resilience and persistence, you know, probably that was the most important thing, just kind of, you know, keep on and keeping on, you know, pushing and educating myself, but, you know, there were not, like, necessarily any particular policies, you know, which had, like, government, etc., you know, which I felt, like, were in any way helpful to me. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (16:13 - 16:54) 

Right, right, especially right when we're talking about people, it's really about surrounding ourselves with the right people, with the positive people, but, of course, we cannot control, maybe those people are going to be saying negative about us, but it's about believing to ourselves, believing to those people who believe in us, right, so it actually, because right now, because you created, like, the Africa Centre, which is, you know, there's a group of people, so let's talk about that space, and how do you see its impact, which is the Africa Centre, what is that, how do you see its impact and social mobility for Black individuals in Hong Kong? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (16:55 - 19:08) 

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, so the impact is two ways, right, the impact within the Black community, the impact within the non-Black community, whether Chinese, Filipinos, Indonesians, you know, and, you know, Indians, etc., so it's kind of, like, two ways, you know, so from the impact within the non-Black first, it's a lot about perceptions, you know, the perceptions of African, of Africa, of Blackness, and in turn, the perception of themselves, because usually, the way you perceive somebody, it's nothing to do with that person, it has to do with how you perceive yourself, so it does, actually, has been a good thing in that, you know, for that, and then, in terms of the Black community itself, you know, so there are two things, one, the perception thing that we're addressing, you know, within the non-Black community, it's also opening doors for the Black community, because people now realize, oh, okay, it's not like all these things I'd imagined, you know, but nobody walks around saying, I'm a terrible human being, you know, but unfortunately, that's the blind spot, right, we don't see our terribleness, you know, but, you know, it's not easy, so there's that as well, you know, which is helping in terms of career, you know, also building up the network, because when somebody's here, you know, it's always kind of like that kind of tribe thing, right, like people have their own people, and they don't actually open up to more, so getting people who give access to these communities, so the platform serves as this kind of connection between communities, and then that connection then grows into something else, so we've seen people, you know, now dreaming into, like, doing better jobs, you know, people initially, some people with PhD will be washing dishes, pushing trolleys, you know, which is totally not right, but now we're seeing that people are realizing that it's possible, so it's giving people hope, faith, you know, confidence within the Black community, as well as also just, you know, the actual opportunities, so, you know, we're seeing some of that, you know, people getting into, into, you know, better, well-respected career, which actually they should have been getting into in the beginning, so it does, is helping in that sense. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (19:09 - 19:27) 

Right, I think it really gives, you know, opportunities for Black individuals, you know, having this Africa Center who supported them, so can you share some of the initiatives or programs at this Africa Center that aim to support and empower the Black, you know, diaspora in Hong Kong? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (19:27 - 21:49) 

Yeah, so our projects, you could think of them in, like, for the Black community, you've got the one that brings the community together, and then the one that enriches the mind, and the one that plays as a platform to something else, whether it's a career or a job, so starting with the ones that brings the community together, you know, so we can do some meetups, where we would meet up the professionals, and then we'll meet up a particular group of, you know, individuals, whether the female, Black community, and then they gather up, and then a crossover with something, like, we do, like, book clubs, you know, African literature book clubs, you know, so those are some of the things that people can join, and these are not just exclusive to the Black community, anybody can join, you know, we've got book clubs, and then we've got children's clubs, you know, like kids club, you know, children's book clubs as well, so parents, they bring their kids to this kids program, and then they connect with each other, you know, of course, as they are connecting, they are enriching also themselves, whether it's discussing a book, we've got some of these movie screenings that we'll do to try to bring the community together, and have discussions, and connect, and then move on to something else, you know, so that's, like, some of the connectivity around that, and then we've got the one that sort of enriches, gives you a platform forward, which is, like, career workshops, you know, so we'll bring in people from, you know, different industries, we discuss, we work on CVs together, you know, applications, and then for entrepreneurs who are starting to, trying to start a business, and new initiatives, we connect, we train, we, you know, connect with mentors, you know, and, you know, and also assist in terms of, like, you know, exposure, whether it's through just, you know, showcasing some of the work that they are doing through bazaars, or websites, or social media, you know, and bringing people to the different businesses as well, so it's kind of, like, a whole package, you know, from let's connect, let's build each other up, and let's give each other a platform, you know, and hopefully once you get the platform, and you're doing well, you can also, you know, stretch your hand back, and say, hey, I also want to give somebody a platform, so ideally, we're hoping that it to, you know, get into something that's actually going to be sustainable, and have a long-term impact. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (21:50 - 22:09) 

Yes, I really like the program you mentioned about the book club, and at the same time, on where children are connecting to other children, I always believe children is our future, so I can always, I can feel that programs that you just mentioned is a long-term, right? We're not only thinking about now, but how about the future generation? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (22:10 - 23:32) 

Yeah, definitely, it's, you know, I think something I've learned from people who have done very well, like the Mandela's, etc., in the past, is that the change is not just about now. The change you are looking for is the change for the future. Sometimes, we are very short-sighted as human beings, that we want change to happen, and ask to benefit who are the ones that are fighting for the change. 

  

No, it doesn't work that way. It never should work that way. It's usually about the future that is coming, and that keeps us humble, and that keeps us our strategy also in check as well, so it's like, you know, investing in these kids, and hopefully, if you look forward in the future, they're really going to have a better, you know, a better platform. 

  

For example, we've been pushing for, you know, for schools to incorporate African literature in schools. I'm not going to be the one that's going to benefit from this, but my kids, or my kids' kids are going to be the ones that are going to benefit from classmates who have a better understanding of Blackness. Classmates, teachers will better understand, the principals of teachers, you know, and a society that's also well, you know, well-developed, not like the first Black person they meet is that person. 

  

They never had any experience of Blackness their entire life, you know, and then when they are a nurse or a doctor, that's the first Blackness experience they are seeing is that particular person. It shouldn't be that way, so we're trying to build things definitely for the future. Now, we can get some short-term benefits, but it's really, really for the future. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (23:33 - 23:55) 

Yeah, totally agree with that. So, because of the platforms that you have, those initiatives that you have, you know, talking about the future, in what ways do you think Africa Centre can leverage its platform to amplify the voices of Black individuals and address racial issues in Hong Kong? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (23:56 - 25:46) 

Yeah, so, you know, so when it comes to these issues, right, you've got, you know, racial issues, there's perception issues, there's opportunity issues. So, the perception issues, you know, we work with the community, we go out and do storytelling that we were saying earlier, we go out to provide African solutions out there, we brought, you know, these are like things that are challenging the perception. But then there's the opportunity issues slash platform, you know, issues where they feel like there's a lack of platform for people, like some Black kid has a talent in photography, but there's just not enough mentors, or there's not enough equipment, you know, like all those things. 

  

So, these are like platform or opportunity issues that we also work to close through, you know, whether it's bringing in that community that can actually look into supporting some of the young people as well. You know, because my belief really is that when it comes to empowerment, you know, what people usually get wrong is like the first thing they want is let's teach you Cantonese, let's teach you whatever language it is that the group speaks. I'm like, yeah, that's good. 

  

But really, if you want to raise confident young people, confident people within their own ethnicity, you shouldn't just be integrating them first, try to empower them through entrepreneurship, you know, supporting their entrepreneurship journeys, etc. And then that can then convert into actually a better empowerment when you actually, you know, integrate them in the community. So, I mean, we're just going to continue with the, you know, challenging perceptions and also providing a platform for Black people as well, you know, through the storytelling and all these solutions, you know, that we're doing. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (25:48 - 26:23) 

That's good. That's a very good, you know, way to do things. We're coming to the end of our podcast for today. 

  

So, this will be my last question to you, Innocent. So, after all of those journeys, those stories, all those experiences, so I'm very curious and I would like to understand from you, like how organizations and communities in Asia or in Hong Kong better support Black individuals and promote inclusivity? 

  

[Innocent Mutanga] (26:24 - 28:23) 

I think how to, you know, how to support, really, I think it's in terms of opportunities, you know, and chance. For example, if you're a big corporate, right, like you have vendors, you have events, and then you're doing food events, it's easy to just go and get maximum and do your catering. But what value are you really adding to the society, you know, like, you know, if you think in terms of value, in terms of social impact, not so much. 

  

I mean, you know, whether you have bought from them or not, it was not going to really make any difference. But could you imagine if you have an event, you're hosting, and then you bring in an organization or group of individuals that are actually, you know, helping to support the community that are falling through the cracks, you know, that will really go a long way, you know, that will really go a long way. So I think, like, what I think people should start doing in their own capacity is just to look for these opportunities, like, you know, in terms of, you know, how can I be inclusive? 

  

It's all there. It's all wherever people are. It's just kind of making that, you know, conscious decision to say, okay, you know, how can I diversify this? 

  

You know, how can I also have more social impact? Just think about social impact, you know, before people actually do things, you know, it will really go a long way. It's easy to just do the most, you know, convenient thing, you know, even if it's low quality. 

  

I've seen that in Hong Kong. It's just like, oh, yeah, we're just going to work with those ones, because that's convenient, or work with them for the past 50 years, you know. But why not look elsewhere and see what else you can actually have. 

  

So I really, really hope those kind of, you know, opportunities benefit of the doubt, not just assume that, oh, because the person is black, therefore, they must not be able to deserve something. So I really kind of hope that those opportunities keep coming up, you know, and that will really do a much, much benefit within the community. 

  

[Ron Sampaga] (28:24 - 29:01) 

Thanks for sharing that, Innocent. You know, there's a lot of things that we could actually discuss other than this. But thank you so much for your time. 

  

I've learned a lot from today's episode. And I hope this is not our first and last conversation. There's be a lot more, may not be in our discussion. 

  

But you know, maybe you can see each other and keep in touch as well. And I'm very interested and I'm very curious on what else, you know, we could share to the people about, you know, how we can support black individuals and promote inclusivity. Again, thank you so much, Innocent. 

  

It was nice speaking with you. And hope to catch up with you very, very soon. 

[Innocent Mutanga] (29:02 - 29:03) 

Oh, thank you. It was an honor.